Let's keep this short:
- 52 riders helped
- several riders on the podium
- many riders with personal bests
- a whole bunch of riders happy with tire wear eliminated and a great handling race bike :)
Some early release race reports:
Bryan HiestandAFM #691
Hi Dave,
I'm the guy with the silver SV and the problem with my rear Pirelli slick tearing on the right side. Your changes helped and I was able to turn a few 1:50's (a new personal best) and I finished 15th in F4 after starting 38th on the grid.
Thanks!!!!!!!!
John Proctor-AFM/WERA #218
Infineon Raceway has always been a challenge for me. It is more technically demanding than our other tracks and I was hopeful that being on the 600 would help me here. At the 3J’s track day, I went up to find out. Well, I was dirt slow. I was struggling with keeping the bike in the power and could tell that my suspension was totally wrong.
CRST's Jim and Nickie were there and so I went to Jim for some help. Like Dave, Jim is very systematic. He worked through the bike and made some changes, particularly in the front. The difference was night and day. I didn’t ask questions, I just let the lap times show it. I dropped 5 seconds in the last session of the day and left with some decent confidence.
Going into the weekend, I knew I had the suspension dialed in so I just needed to focus on riding. It was so nice to have that luxury. I spent Saturday just working the track. I had picked up enough speed that I was tearing up my rear tire quite a bit, but Dave took care of that with one look. He identified the problem and fixed it within one session, again, helping me focus on riding and getting faster. It all paid off Sunday as I ran three beautiful races. In 600 Superbike, I got a decent start, but was able to stay aggressive and brought my times from practice down by 2 seconds. In F1, I didn’t gain any time, but stayed at the faster pace in spite of having to battle three bikes for 6 of the 8 laps. And in 600 production, the last race of the day, I dropped another full second for my best finish on the 600 yet. I’m already excited for Round 3!
Thanks to Dave and Jim for the efforts to keep my mind on the track instead of on my bike.
Wednesday, April 30, 2008
Thursday, April 24, 2008
One on One teaching results with John Olsen
Hey Dave,
Thanks for all the help at Laguna on Monday – it feels like it is all starting to come together. At least at Laguna. That is something that kinda bums me out a bit. When I work with my drivers, I always tell them to “drive the car, not the track.” Meaning, I don’t want them to get so wrapped up in the line, I rather them work on driving the car to the limit. Basically, not be so focused on connecting the dots. That’s why track locals are one fast for the first couple of sessions. I’m starting to feel like a Laguna track local if you get my drift.
Anyway, thanks again for all of your help. I have learned so much over the past few months, and I’m having a great time. Now it’s time to get that data system set-up.
John Olsen
Team Manager
World Speed Motorsports
Thanks for all the help at Laguna on Monday – it feels like it is all starting to come together. At least at Laguna. That is something that kinda bums me out a bit. When I work with my drivers, I always tell them to “drive the car, not the track.” Meaning, I don’t want them to get so wrapped up in the line, I rather them work on driving the car to the limit. Basically, not be so focused on connecting the dots. That’s why track locals are one fast for the first couple of sessions. I’m starting to feel like a Laguna track local if you get my drift.
Anyway, thanks again for all of your help. I have learned so much over the past few months, and I’m having a great time. Now it’s time to get that data system set-up.
John Olsen
Team Manager
World Speed Motorsports
Wednesday, April 23, 2008
Brian Evans, Mid Ohio Pirelli tire tearing
I have been looking at the article published in Road Racing World’s 2008 Track Day Directory and I am going to purchase your DVD next week but I had some specific questions for your about tire wear.
I had a look on your website at the ‘tire-wear.html’ page and I noticed I have some of the very same issues which you are detailing. Included below are some links to images of my tire wear. I am using Pirelli Daiblo Superbike Slicks or Diablo Supercorsas, depending on what is available, typically in the SC2 compound at Mid-Ohio, a newly paved track. I know most of this info is overkill but I would rather be thorough.
Typically I will set my tire pressure cold, about 3 below at the rear and 3-4 below at the front AND I use tire warmers for about 45 minutes before I go on track. I noticed that you are stating 5-7lbs is a more ideal gain. Should I be setting my cold pressure this far below where I want to be? According to my notes I have the sag set at 43mm front and 28 rear.
Any help is appreciated, unfortunately I keep destroying tires and there is little knowledge on this issue around here… Here are the pictures of my tire wear…
http://www.redstarwebdesigns.com/bikes/images/026.JPG - front left side
http://www.redstarwebdesigns.com/bikes/images/028.JPG - rear right side
Brian Evans
Senior Web Analyst
REPLY:
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the email and the detailed information. The tire wear is disturbing as it is eating tires and killing your wallet.
Front tire looks like a geometry tear to me given what I can see. The bike may to too nose heavy with too much bias to the front wheel and that will result in what appears to be a rasp file shaving the tire away. The rear tire is a pressure and rebound problem by looking at the tearing and the triangulation of the tearing around the tread pattern.
With the AMA team I work with we have the SC2 rear and SC3 front tires on the warmers for 90 minutes to equalize the temp between the tire and the rim. Then we set the hot pressure at 31 front and 28 rear. This is the only way that we can stop these tires from tearing. We double check it by having the riders come in at full pace so we can get an accurate read on hot pressure.
Has your gauge been calibrated?
Assuming sag is set as per your email, I would recommend setting the tire pressures hot from here on out.
NEXT - I would change your geometry radically to lower the back or raise the front by 8mm to see what happens to the front tire. Dont' go in small increments!
NEXT - work on rear shock rebound. Go 6 clicks in both direction to see what that does to the tread pattern.
Let me know how things proceed and how I can help you further.
Many thanks,
Dave
I had a look on your website at the ‘tire-wear.html’ page and I noticed I have some of the very same issues which you are detailing. Included below are some links to images of my tire wear. I am using Pirelli Daiblo Superbike Slicks or Diablo Supercorsas, depending on what is available, typically in the SC2 compound at Mid-Ohio, a newly paved track. I know most of this info is overkill but I would rather be thorough.
Typically I will set my tire pressure cold, about 3 below at the rear and 3-4 below at the front AND I use tire warmers for about 45 minutes before I go on track. I noticed that you are stating 5-7lbs is a more ideal gain. Should I be setting my cold pressure this far below where I want to be? According to my notes I have the sag set at 43mm front and 28 rear.
Any help is appreciated, unfortunately I keep destroying tires and there is little knowledge on this issue around here… Here are the pictures of my tire wear…
http://www.redstarwebdesigns.com/bikes/images/026.JPG - front left side
http://www.redstarwebdesigns.com/bikes/images/028.JPG - rear right side
Brian Evans
Senior Web Analyst
REPLY:
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the email and the detailed information. The tire wear is disturbing as it is eating tires and killing your wallet.
Front tire looks like a geometry tear to me given what I can see. The bike may to too nose heavy with too much bias to the front wheel and that will result in what appears to be a rasp file shaving the tire away. The rear tire is a pressure and rebound problem by looking at the tearing and the triangulation of the tearing around the tread pattern.
With the AMA team I work with we have the SC2 rear and SC3 front tires on the warmers for 90 minutes to equalize the temp between the tire and the rim. Then we set the hot pressure at 31 front and 28 rear. This is the only way that we can stop these tires from tearing. We double check it by having the riders come in at full pace so we can get an accurate read on hot pressure.
Has your gauge been calibrated?
Assuming sag is set as per your email, I would recommend setting the tire pressures hot from here on out.
NEXT - I would change your geometry radically to lower the back or raise the front by 8mm to see what happens to the front tire. Dont' go in small increments!
NEXT - work on rear shock rebound. Go 6 clicks in both direction to see what that does to the tread pattern.
Let me know how things proceed and how I can help you further.
Many thanks,
Dave
Don Walker's 2008 R6 low side crash analysis
I have both your dvd's and study them religiously!!! I have actually gotten pretty good at dialing my own suspension due to your clear explanations and demonstration of how a motorcycle suspension works.
I am writing you because i have a weird problem I just can't figure out. I am an avid rider and have 3 track days under my belt. I recently purchased a 2008 r6 and while riding it after setting sag, rebound, and compression I noticed that the bike will lean over to a certain degree and just stop. Now by this point I am not low enough to drag knee. When I try to lean the bike more it feels "squirrelly" if you will.
I tried leaning it more and more and alas I low sided. As I got to certain lean angle the bike just wouldn' go any further. I had to put some effort into making the bike lean over more. At this point the bike felt squirrelly and just fell down. It was more of a feeling that the bike just fell down as opposed to sliding away from me. I was wondering if you had any idea what causes this.
If you are too busy to offer any advice I totally understand. Its just that i hate getting advice from "know it alls" and would rather get some honest input from someone who understands motorcycle dynamics. Thanks!
REPLY
Hi Don,
Thanks for the email and the detailed explanation of what you are feeling with the bike in regards to lean and the good understanding you have of what happened when you low sided. That is the key part to understanding what happened and why.
When you set preload and compression too soft the front forks drop to a certain point and then cease to move. When that happens, the tire becomes the suspension and if you lean the bike too far you overload the tire, the side wall and then the edge collapse and the bike low sides falling in the direction of the turn so that you fall on it so to speak.
If the bike had gone away from you the low side crash would have been from too much gas taking weight away from the front wheel causing it to skid out away from the direction of the corner.
There are many other variables here, but I would reset your fork sag to 35mm and set the blue compression (low speed) to all the way shut and come back 12 clicks. Start with this settings and see how the front behaves.
NOTE:
1. If the rear sag is too tight it will shift the balance of the bike forward and drive the front wheel into the ground rather than along it. Check rear sag, including free sag to remove this from the equation.
2. If you have a larger than stock rear tire in place, this will pick the back of the bike up and change the balance point of the bike too.
SECOND EMAIL:
DON:
Hi Don,
Thanks Mr. Moss. I think I know what happened after reading your explanation. I checked my suspension again and rechecked some measurements. I had my front sag set at 28mm with really soft compression. So....tell me if this is right. Maybe my preload was too stiff with really soft compression turning the tire into the suspension. Basically with the fork preload being so high the front had no movement and with the soft compression it was "bottoming out" I did have a zip tie on there and the front travel had about an inch left, but I think because my preload was so hard that is what cause the problem. I'll try reseting the bike to your suggestions and let you know what happens.
Thanks Dave!
REPLY:
Hi Don,
Yes, that would be a very concise explanation. Too much preload (should be 35-38mm) with low speed compression at 16+ out would cause the forks to drop to a set point and then the tire is what you have for suspension. Once you overloaded the front tire the bars turned in and the low side happened.
You need to have the zip tie go to about 1/2 and inch left for street use.
Seems you have learned a great deal fro the DVD's!
I am writing you because i have a weird problem I just can't figure out. I am an avid rider and have 3 track days under my belt. I recently purchased a 2008 r6 and while riding it after setting sag, rebound, and compression I noticed that the bike will lean over to a certain degree and just stop. Now by this point I am not low enough to drag knee. When I try to lean the bike more it feels "squirrelly" if you will.
I tried leaning it more and more and alas I low sided. As I got to certain lean angle the bike just wouldn' go any further. I had to put some effort into making the bike lean over more. At this point the bike felt squirrelly and just fell down. It was more of a feeling that the bike just fell down as opposed to sliding away from me. I was wondering if you had any idea what causes this.
If you are too busy to offer any advice I totally understand. Its just that i hate getting advice from "know it alls" and would rather get some honest input from someone who understands motorcycle dynamics. Thanks!
REPLY
Hi Don,
Thanks for the email and the detailed explanation of what you are feeling with the bike in regards to lean and the good understanding you have of what happened when you low sided. That is the key part to understanding what happened and why.
When you set preload and compression too soft the front forks drop to a certain point and then cease to move. When that happens, the tire becomes the suspension and if you lean the bike too far you overload the tire, the side wall and then the edge collapse and the bike low sides falling in the direction of the turn so that you fall on it so to speak.
If the bike had gone away from you the low side crash would have been from too much gas taking weight away from the front wheel causing it to skid out away from the direction of the corner.
There are many other variables here, but I would reset your fork sag to 35mm and set the blue compression (low speed) to all the way shut and come back 12 clicks. Start with this settings and see how the front behaves.
NOTE:
1. If the rear sag is too tight it will shift the balance of the bike forward and drive the front wheel into the ground rather than along it. Check rear sag, including free sag to remove this from the equation.
2. If you have a larger than stock rear tire in place, this will pick the back of the bike up and change the balance point of the bike too.
SECOND EMAIL:
DON:
Hi Don,
Thanks Mr. Moss. I think I know what happened after reading your explanation. I checked my suspension again and rechecked some measurements. I had my front sag set at 28mm with really soft compression. So....tell me if this is right. Maybe my preload was too stiff with really soft compression turning the tire into the suspension. Basically with the fork preload being so high the front had no movement and with the soft compression it was "bottoming out" I did have a zip tie on there and the front travel had about an inch left, but I think because my preload was so hard that is what cause the problem. I'll try reseting the bike to your suggestions and let you know what happens.
Thanks Dave!
REPLY:
Hi Don,
Yes, that would be a very concise explanation. Too much preload (should be 35-38mm) with low speed compression at 16+ out would cause the forks to drop to a set point and then the tire is what you have for suspension. Once you overloaded the front tire the bars turned in and the low side happened.
You need to have the zip tie go to about 1/2 and inch left for street use.
Seems you have learned a great deal fro the DVD's!
Monday, April 21, 2008
AMA report from Barber Motorsports Park, AL
SAFETY FIRST RACE REPORT, AMA NATIONAL
BARBER MOTORSPORTS PARK, AL
4/17 to 4/20
Thursday Promoter Practice:
Session 1, ride the bike and validate reference points from last year.
BIKE 1:
Gearing 15 x 45
Rear axle at 39.5mm
Fork Position +7mm
Springs .95kg
Preload 10 turns in
Rebound 1.5 out
Compression 1.25 out
Shock ride height: +5mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 12 out
Session 2 evaluate gearing:
BIKE 2:
Gearing 15 x 44
Rear axle at 56.1mm
Fork Position +7mm
Springs .95kg
Preload 10 turns in
Rebound 1.5 out
Compression 1.25 out
Shock ride height: +7mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 12 out
Session 3:
Bike 1 gearing at 15 x 44, Rear axle at 42.2mm
Bike 2 gearing at 15 x 46. Rear axle at 32.5mm
Fork height retained, rear ride height changed to +6mm on both bikes.
Focus: gearing for drive off the corners, chassis geometry for finishing the corners, 6 laps per bike.
Result: Bobby stayed out for the entire session leaving no time for Bike #1
FRIDAY:
Focus: repeat session 3 to evaluate chassis and gearing.
Bike #2, 6 laps, Bike #1, 8 laps.
Result:
46 rear sprocket chosen
Fork preload changed to 11.5 turns in to eradicate chatter.
Bike # 2 had better geometry, base line chassis chosen
BIKE 2:
Gearing 15 x 46
Rear axle at 32.5mm
Fork Position +7mm
Springs .95kg
Preload 10 turns in
Rebound 1.5 out
Compression 1.25 out
Shock ride height: +5mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 12 out
Lap times in low 1:30’s but race time will be in the 28/29’s. 45 rear sprocket may be more appropriate, and Bobby’s poor sector 2 times validate this. After discussion with Owen, Bobby and Gabor 45 installed (new chain on bike #2 to retain axle position, rear ride height change to reflect geometry differences).
SATURDAY:
BIKE 1:
Gearing 15 x 45
Rear axle at 37.08mm
Fork Position +7mm
Springs .975kg
Preload 8 turns in
Rebound 1.5 out
Compression 1.5 out
Shock ride height: +6mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 11 out
Practice 1:
Focus: work hard on 2nd segment to improve times from 27th position, and trying to get to target time as set by leaders (too fast and you loose entry speed into segment 3). Also evaluate fork changes for initial turn in.
Change to bike #2 for back to back comparison. Rear axle at 37.38mm.
Result:
Fastest time 1:28.9 on bike #2
Fork preload changed to 11.5 turns in to eradicate chatter.
NOTE: make both bikes identical for qualifying in all aspects as far as possible. Only discrepancy was rear axle position off 0.3mm between bikes.
QUALIFYING: 25 mins
Focus:
Use Bike 1 to get warmed up for 5 laps, 6 max. Yellow front at 31 psi, White rear (2 hard laps on it yesterday) at 26.5psi after 90 minutes on the warmers.
Bike #2, new yellow front and new white rear and get 5/6 laps with faster riders.
Preload changed to 12 turns in.
Result:
Qualified 14th on the 4th row. Goal achieved.
SUNDAY:
RACE:
Yellow front at 31psi hot and 234 rear at 26.2psi after 90 minutes on the warmers.
Track temp 127 degrees, ambient 86 on pit clock.
Bobby finished 12th, Gabor 13th.
Final settings:
Fork height: +7mm
Spring rate .95kg
Preload 12 turns in
Rebound 1.5 turns out
Compression 1.25 turns out
Shock ride height +7mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 12 out
BARBER MOTORSPORTS PARK, AL
4/17 to 4/20
Thursday Promoter Practice:
Session 1, ride the bike and validate reference points from last year.
BIKE 1:
Gearing 15 x 45
Rear axle at 39.5mm
Fork Position +7mm
Springs .95kg
Preload 10 turns in
Rebound 1.5 out
Compression 1.25 out
Shock ride height: +5mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 12 out
Session 2 evaluate gearing:
BIKE 2:
Gearing 15 x 44
Rear axle at 56.1mm
Fork Position +7mm
Springs .95kg
Preload 10 turns in
Rebound 1.5 out
Compression 1.25 out
Shock ride height: +7mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 12 out
Session 3:
Bike 1 gearing at 15 x 44, Rear axle at 42.2mm
Bike 2 gearing at 15 x 46. Rear axle at 32.5mm
Fork height retained, rear ride height changed to +6mm on both bikes.
Focus: gearing for drive off the corners, chassis geometry for finishing the corners, 6 laps per bike.
Result: Bobby stayed out for the entire session leaving no time for Bike #1
FRIDAY:
Focus: repeat session 3 to evaluate chassis and gearing.
Bike #2, 6 laps, Bike #1, 8 laps.
Result:
46 rear sprocket chosen
Fork preload changed to 11.5 turns in to eradicate chatter.
Bike # 2 had better geometry, base line chassis chosen
BIKE 2:
Gearing 15 x 46
Rear axle at 32.5mm
Fork Position +7mm
Springs .95kg
Preload 10 turns in
Rebound 1.5 out
Compression 1.25 out
Shock ride height: +5mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 12 out
Lap times in low 1:30’s but race time will be in the 28/29’s. 45 rear sprocket may be more appropriate, and Bobby’s poor sector 2 times validate this. After discussion with Owen, Bobby and Gabor 45 installed (new chain on bike #2 to retain axle position, rear ride height change to reflect geometry differences).
SATURDAY:
BIKE 1:
Gearing 15 x 45
Rear axle at 37.08mm
Fork Position +7mm
Springs .975kg
Preload 8 turns in
Rebound 1.5 out
Compression 1.5 out
Shock ride height: +6mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 11 out
Practice 1:
Focus: work hard on 2nd segment to improve times from 27th position, and trying to get to target time as set by leaders (too fast and you loose entry speed into segment 3). Also evaluate fork changes for initial turn in.
Change to bike #2 for back to back comparison. Rear axle at 37.38mm.
Result:
Fastest time 1:28.9 on bike #2
Fork preload changed to 11.5 turns in to eradicate chatter.
NOTE: make both bikes identical for qualifying in all aspects as far as possible. Only discrepancy was rear axle position off 0.3mm between bikes.
QUALIFYING: 25 mins
Focus:
Use Bike 1 to get warmed up for 5 laps, 6 max. Yellow front at 31 psi, White rear (2 hard laps on it yesterday) at 26.5psi after 90 minutes on the warmers.
Bike #2, new yellow front and new white rear and get 5/6 laps with faster riders.
Preload changed to 12 turns in.
Result:
Qualified 14th on the 4th row. Goal achieved.
SUNDAY:
RACE:
Yellow front at 31psi hot and 234 rear at 26.2psi after 90 minutes on the warmers.
Track temp 127 degrees, ambient 86 on pit clock.
Bobby finished 12th, Gabor 13th.
Final settings:
Fork height: +7mm
Spring rate .95kg
Preload 12 turns in
Rebound 1.5 turns out
Compression 1.25 turns out
Shock ride height +7mm
500lb spring
10mm free sag
HS compression 40 out
LS compression 9 out
Rebound 12 out
Friday, April 18, 2008
Mark McKinney at WERA West on revised Race Tech 25mm cartridges
Dave and Jim,
I wanted to provide a bit of feedback after picking up the recently re-built forks from you for my 2006 R6.
To sum it all up in a single word... amazing. What a difference the recent Catalyst Reaction fork re-build made on the bike! The bike went from being an overwhleming mis-handling handful at Buttonwillow where 10th place was the best I could manage in the F-40 class, to a 1st place finish at Las Vegas in the Sr Superbike Expert class this past weekend. During the weekend, a few tweaks of the springs and rebound damping was all it took to allow me to improve my best-ever lap times at Las Vegas by nearly 2 seconds!
Thanks to both of you for your support on and off the track, and for the excellent work you do.
Mark McKinney WERA Sr. SB #1
I wanted to provide a bit of feedback after picking up the recently re-built forks from you for my 2006 R6.
To sum it all up in a single word... amazing. What a difference the recent Catalyst Reaction fork re-build made on the bike! The bike went from being an overwhleming mis-handling handful at Buttonwillow where 10th place was the best I could manage in the F-40 class, to a 1st place finish at Las Vegas in the Sr Superbike Expert class this past weekend. During the weekend, a few tweaks of the springs and rebound damping was all it took to allow me to improve my best-ever lap times at Las Vegas by nearly 2 seconds!
Thanks to both of you for your support on and off the track, and for the excellent work you do.
Mark McKinney WERA Sr. SB #1
Tuesday, April 15, 2008
PIRELLI TIRE WEAR QUESTION
Hi Dave,
I am learning more about suspension and reading tires, and purchasedyour videos from onthethrottle - they're great! I also have seen yourtire web page http://www.feelthetrack.com/tire-wear.html. But I stillhave a question that I was hoping you could clear up. I am a ControlRider with NESBA and would consider myself of decently proficient rider.I happen to be using a Pirelli Diablo Corsa III tire this past weekend(as it is our sponsored Control Rider tire), and it showed somethinginteresting that I would not have caught on a DOT race tire like theSupercorsa. I saw what looks exactly like the rebound cupping. Butsince the DCIII has tread that goes all the way to the edge of the tire,I saw that from the very edge of the tire to about an inch in, the tirehas the trailing edge raised. But then from about an inch off the edgeof the tire to the center of the tire, it has the leading edge raised.Seems odd that it switched like that. And I never would have caughtthis with my DOT race tires as the tread stops about an inch from theedge. Any idea what would cause this?Thanks in advance!
Matt
REPLY:
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the email and the kind words. Good eye you have too when looking at tires and yes on race dot's there would not have been any evidence of the changes.
The change on the leading edge from tall to rounded on the side of the tire is due to the valving in the shock itself. It is not uncommon to see both patterns on tires, and in general my thoughts are that when the bike is straight up and down, I don't worry about tire wear too much at that point in the tire. However, we are most vulnerable when we are on the side/edge of the tire so the shock has to work perfectly at that time. Therefore I will always adjust rebound damping based on this criteria to make sure the bike is behaving correctly.
As with all tuning, to get something ou have to compromise with something else, so you can over damp the rear shock in trying to get "perfect tire wear" when seeing this pattern. It is better to make sure that the bike works well at all angles and too much or too little rebound damping which wil affect handling both on corner entry and corner exit.
Please let me know if you have any other questions!
Dave
I am learning more about suspension and reading tires, and purchasedyour videos from onthethrottle - they're great! I also have seen yourtire web page http://www.feelthetrack.com/tire-wear.html. But I stillhave a question that I was hoping you could clear up. I am a ControlRider with NESBA and would consider myself of decently proficient rider.I happen to be using a Pirelli Diablo Corsa III tire this past weekend(as it is our sponsored Control Rider tire), and it showed somethinginteresting that I would not have caught on a DOT race tire like theSupercorsa. I saw what looks exactly like the rebound cupping. Butsince the DCIII has tread that goes all the way to the edge of the tire,I saw that from the very edge of the tire to about an inch in, the tirehas the trailing edge raised. But then from about an inch off the edgeof the tire to the center of the tire, it has the leading edge raised.Seems odd that it switched like that. And I never would have caughtthis with my DOT race tires as the tread stops about an inch from theedge. Any idea what would cause this?Thanks in advance!
Matt
REPLY:
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the email and the kind words. Good eye you have too when looking at tires and yes on race dot's there would not have been any evidence of the changes.
The change on the leading edge from tall to rounded on the side of the tire is due to the valving in the shock itself. It is not uncommon to see both patterns on tires, and in general my thoughts are that when the bike is straight up and down, I don't worry about tire wear too much at that point in the tire. However, we are most vulnerable when we are on the side/edge of the tire so the shock has to work perfectly at that time. Therefore I will always adjust rebound damping based on this criteria to make sure the bike is behaving correctly.
As with all tuning, to get something ou have to compromise with something else, so you can over damp the rear shock in trying to get "perfect tire wear" when seeing this pattern. It is better to make sure that the bike works well at all angles and too much or too little rebound damping which wil affect handling both on corner entry and corner exit.
Please let me know if you have any other questions!
Dave
KEIGWINS NOVICE SHOOL, THUNDERHILL RACEWAY
As always, this is a wonderfull event that I look forward to as for many attendees, this is truly their first sortie on a track, and the improvements can be dramatic to say the least from 4 minute laps down to the sub 3 minute area. Many bikes are ridden, not just sport bikes and that makes things even more interesting :)
Day one involves setting up every bike at the school (50-60 bikes), lecturing in the classroom and then being part of the instructor demo.
Bike set up can be as simple as a "No - there's nothing to adjust other than tire pressure and geometry" through to a 10 minute initial set up followe by multiple visits. The bottom line for day one is to make sure that every bike is optimized so that instructors know that they can get from the students what they are asking for becuase the bike is correctly set up and not part of the equation. It takes a lot of work sometimes on these days with the times that riders drop by the end of day one, but that leaves day two open with very little to do. Note that all the bikes have to be done before 2.45pm when I start classroom lectures........
In the classroom, the focus is always two simple points for every to avoid information overload:
1. Is your bike safe to ride based on the fork and shock springs you have on the bike right now.
2. When was the last time that you serviced the fork and shock oil.
It is fun to see how many people never consider what suspension they have on the bike - much like a car it seems like it should be one size fits all. Unfortunately on bikes this is not true, so teaching students how to measure sag and then putting riders on one bike of varying weights always creates a lot of debate. Add to this that BMW is the only company service manual that specs suspension oil changes, and you get the picture of incredulity on some faces. The information just ins't out there, so the classroom lectures really help make people aware of what they need to take care of and look out for when buying a new or used bike.
Some feedback from the school:
Dave,
I just wanted to thank you again for the service you provided me at the Thunderhill track days April 5 and 6.
Due to your suspension assistance I was able to improve my best lap time by 7 seconds. The advice you offered, in how to break the track down into sections to better understand the components was invaluable. That was some of the most helpful information I've received, at any track, from any instructor. Perhaps you could add sage advice to the suspension logo.
I hope I have an opportunity to utilize your services in the future.
Chaz Verrall
Ugly Zebra striped GSXR 750
Day one involves setting up every bike at the school (50-60 bikes), lecturing in the classroom and then being part of the instructor demo.
Bike set up can be as simple as a "No - there's nothing to adjust other than tire pressure and geometry" through to a 10 minute initial set up followe by multiple visits. The bottom line for day one is to make sure that every bike is optimized so that instructors know that they can get from the students what they are asking for becuase the bike is correctly set up and not part of the equation. It takes a lot of work sometimes on these days with the times that riders drop by the end of day one, but that leaves day two open with very little to do. Note that all the bikes have to be done before 2.45pm when I start classroom lectures........
In the classroom, the focus is always two simple points for every to avoid information overload:
1. Is your bike safe to ride based on the fork and shock springs you have on the bike right now.
2. When was the last time that you serviced the fork and shock oil.
It is fun to see how many people never consider what suspension they have on the bike - much like a car it seems like it should be one size fits all. Unfortunately on bikes this is not true, so teaching students how to measure sag and then putting riders on one bike of varying weights always creates a lot of debate. Add to this that BMW is the only company service manual that specs suspension oil changes, and you get the picture of incredulity on some faces. The information just ins't out there, so the classroom lectures really help make people aware of what they need to take care of and look out for when buying a new or used bike.
Some feedback from the school:
Dave,
I just wanted to thank you again for the service you provided me at the Thunderhill track days April 5 and 6.
Due to your suspension assistance I was able to improve my best lap time by 7 seconds. The advice you offered, in how to break the track down into sections to better understand the components was invaluable. That was some of the most helpful information I've received, at any track, from any instructor. Perhaps you could add sage advice to the suspension logo.
I hope I have an opportunity to utilize your services in the future.
Chaz Verrall
Ugly Zebra striped GSXR 750
Cycle New and Motorcycle USA 600 shoot out at Infineon Racway
I was invited to attend this event to provide assistance with the Triumph 675. Originally, that was to support Motorcycle USA but on the morning of the event, Cycle News needed their bike taken care of for the day too. After a little running around getting a couple of stands etc and making sure everyone was on the same page, I prepped the bikes for day, and then found out who the riders were and what they weighed without gear so I had a good idea of what to do in baseline settings per rider prior to them taking the bike out on the track.
Motorcycle USA riders:
Jimmy Moore, Corey Call, Shawn Roberti, Michael Earnest, Adam Waheed, Ken Hutchinson
Cyc;le News riders:
Chuck Sorenson, Alec Dare, Paul Carruthers, Craig McLean, Steve Atlas
Brands present:
Triumph, Yamaha, Honda, Kawsaki, Suzuki, Ducati 848
Tire Vendor: Pirelli - Superbike Tires.net
The basis of the morning was to have all riders try out each bike and make setting changes as needed for each rider. At the conclusion of the morning session the two fastest riders from each group would run a superpole event with each bike to see what times each bike would do. Then the bikes would be run on the drag strip for 1/4 mile times in the late afternoon.
The difficult part is to create a baseline for each rider, based on their riding syle and that took a lot of guesswork as there was a 130lb variance between riders just to start with. Running 2 bikes seems like it would not be too difficult, but that includes tire warmers, fuel, suspension geometry changes and suspension adjustments prior to each rider getting on the bike and feedback after their session for potential superpole settings based on the eventual riders.
The complete report will go to both Magazines this week, and I will hyperlink to the artciles and put them on my site for review when they are published. Needless to say, the day very intense but in the end a really worthwhile experience for both myself, the riders, and CRST as a company.
Motorcycle USA riders:
Jimmy Moore, Corey Call, Shawn Roberti, Michael Earnest, Adam Waheed, Ken Hutchinson
Cyc;le News riders:
Chuck Sorenson, Alec Dare, Paul Carruthers, Craig McLean, Steve Atlas
Brands present:
Triumph, Yamaha, Honda, Kawsaki, Suzuki, Ducati 848
Tire Vendor: Pirelli - Superbike Tires.net
The basis of the morning was to have all riders try out each bike and make setting changes as needed for each rider. At the conclusion of the morning session the two fastest riders from each group would run a superpole event with each bike to see what times each bike would do. Then the bikes would be run on the drag strip for 1/4 mile times in the late afternoon.
The difficult part is to create a baseline for each rider, based on their riding syle and that took a lot of guesswork as there was a 130lb variance between riders just to start with. Running 2 bikes seems like it would not be too difficult, but that includes tire warmers, fuel, suspension geometry changes and suspension adjustments prior to each rider getting on the bike and feedback after their session for potential superpole settings based on the eventual riders.
The complete report will go to both Magazines this week, and I will hyperlink to the artciles and put them on my site for review when they are published. Needless to say, the day very intense but in the end a really worthwhile experience for both myself, the riders, and CRST as a company.
Friday, April 11, 2008
AFM RACE REPORT: Matt Weathers
Saturday day morning started off very slow. I went out for my 1st session and felt like I was fighting with the bike. Being the stubborn person I am, I never asked for help and figured it was just me. Saturday practice was my 2nd day on a bike since August of 2007 so I know I had some bugs to work out before I was going to run the pace I know I can run. During the 5 sessions I ran on Saturday I felt stronger in the slower sections than I did in the fast ones such as Riverside on down to the sweeper before the esses. I knew I could go faster through that section but the feedback from my 2005 GSXR 750 was not giving me much confidence. The day started with lap times above 2:00 and ended @ a 1:58.
I went faster than that 3 years ago, so finally at the end of the day, I decided to come see you Dave, over at Catalyst Reaction. Dave has always been a huge asset when it comes to set up and suspension tuning. I wish I had gone to him from the beginning of the weekend. Saturday afternoon after practice Dave took all of my sag measurements and noticed I was in the ballpark and that no adjustments were needed there. I discussed the Rake and Trail numbers I had adjusted (@the end of the day) by lowering the rear of the bike and he agreed. I was riding all day Saturday with way too steep of a fork angle. The back of the bike was jacked way too high and the swing arm angle was above 13 degrees, whatever that means. Point is, again, I could have been there with the correct setup Saturday morning. After looking at the wear on the rear tire Dave adjusted the rebound and prepared me for Sundays races.
Sunday morning comes along and I'm ready to test the changes made the afternoon before. I immediately felt more comfortable in the faster sections. I'm not sure if I went any faster in Sunday morning practice but the bike was feeling much more stable.
I went out for Open Superbike starting in 24th. The class was the 2nd wave on the grid. I got a good start and ended up in about 16th or 17th position after turn 1. I was feeling much more confident from the changes made to the rear end and was able to get on the gas much sooner when exiting the corners. Riverside came and went without any issues on the 1st lap and so did the rest of the back half of Buttonwillow Raceway. I was having fun again! As the race went on I made more passes and settled into 12th with no surprises. The bike was feeling much better through the faster sections and under braking. This allowed me to concentrate on what I wanted the bike to do rather than planning for what it was going to do and waiting for that to happen. I finished in 12th spot and my best lap was a 1:55.9.
I then took the bike back over to Dave to check on the rear tire wear and Dave made another adjustment to the rebound for me. The funny thing about it is that you (Dave) looked at the tire and from the wear you know which direction to go with adjustments. We're not talking about a tire tearing or anything. The tire was fine. Its things that Dave notices like this, that makes me wonder why I didn't go to him from the beginning. I'm done trying to sort these things out myself.
The next race was 750 Production and I was 6th on the grid. I was feeling good from the changes made from before and knew I could go faster. I got a poor start and ended up in 10th or 12th position. Somewhere around there. I lost the front group who I was hoping to get a tow from and learn something. I finally got into a groove around Riverside again and started climbing back up the charts. The bike was working well when exiting the faster sections and under braking too. I felt much stronger running deeper into the sweeper before the esses and then getting a good drive into and out of the esses. The bike just felt much more predictable and I was comfortable when it was moving around. I finished 7th and dropped to a 1:54.9. With that being my last race for the day I was happy with my finishes considering where I was the day before.
Dropping 3 seconds in 1 practice and 2 races isn't bad. It was my 2nd weekend on a motorcycle period since August or September of 2007, so its ok. Now I'm going to continue to work with Dave for the rest of the season and have some fun.
Dave, Thanks again for the help! I look forward to seeing you soon.
I went faster than that 3 years ago, so finally at the end of the day, I decided to come see you Dave, over at Catalyst Reaction. Dave has always been a huge asset when it comes to set up and suspension tuning. I wish I had gone to him from the beginning of the weekend. Saturday afternoon after practice Dave took all of my sag measurements and noticed I was in the ballpark and that no adjustments were needed there. I discussed the Rake and Trail numbers I had adjusted (@the end of the day) by lowering the rear of the bike and he agreed. I was riding all day Saturday with way too steep of a fork angle. The back of the bike was jacked way too high and the swing arm angle was above 13 degrees, whatever that means. Point is, again, I could have been there with the correct setup Saturday morning. After looking at the wear on the rear tire Dave adjusted the rebound and prepared me for Sundays races.
Sunday morning comes along and I'm ready to test the changes made the afternoon before. I immediately felt more comfortable in the faster sections. I'm not sure if I went any faster in Sunday morning practice but the bike was feeling much more stable.
I went out for Open Superbike starting in 24th. The class was the 2nd wave on the grid. I got a good start and ended up in about 16th or 17th position after turn 1. I was feeling much more confident from the changes made to the rear end and was able to get on the gas much sooner when exiting the corners. Riverside came and went without any issues on the 1st lap and so did the rest of the back half of Buttonwillow Raceway. I was having fun again! As the race went on I made more passes and settled into 12th with no surprises. The bike was feeling much better through the faster sections and under braking. This allowed me to concentrate on what I wanted the bike to do rather than planning for what it was going to do and waiting for that to happen. I finished in 12th spot and my best lap was a 1:55.9.
I then took the bike back over to Dave to check on the rear tire wear and Dave made another adjustment to the rebound for me. The funny thing about it is that you (Dave) looked at the tire and from the wear you know which direction to go with adjustments. We're not talking about a tire tearing or anything. The tire was fine. Its things that Dave notices like this, that makes me wonder why I didn't go to him from the beginning. I'm done trying to sort these things out myself.
The next race was 750 Production and I was 6th on the grid. I was feeling good from the changes made from before and knew I could go faster. I got a poor start and ended up in 10th or 12th position. Somewhere around there. I lost the front group who I was hoping to get a tow from and learn something. I finally got into a groove around Riverside again and started climbing back up the charts. The bike was working well when exiting the faster sections and under braking too. I felt much stronger running deeper into the sweeper before the esses and then getting a good drive into and out of the esses. The bike just felt much more predictable and I was comfortable when it was moving around. I finished 7th and dropped to a 1:54.9. With that being my last race for the day I was happy with my finishes considering where I was the day before.
Dropping 3 seconds in 1 practice and 2 races isn't bad. It was my 2nd weekend on a motorcycle period since August or September of 2007, so its ok. Now I'm going to continue to work with Dave for the rest of the season and have some fun.
Dave, Thanks again for the help! I look forward to seeing you soon.
Track Daz customer: Mark Williams
Good morning. I attended the track day at Willow Springs yesterday that was sponsored by Track Daz.
I had my suspension set up and tuned by James Morse from the Tustin location and wanted to thank you for the excellent work and helpful suggestions provided by them. It was my first track day and had to be the best motorcycling experience I have ever had.
I was unable to talk to your guys after the event and subsequently unable to get a copy of my particular suspension settings. I was hoping to be able to get a copy emailed to me if that is possible.
My name is Mark Williams and I was riding a green 2005 Kawasaki ZX6RR and wearing green, black and white Hein Gericke leathers.
Thanks again for all your help.
Mark
I had my suspension set up and tuned by James Morse from the Tustin location and wanted to thank you for the excellent work and helpful suggestions provided by them. It was my first track day and had to be the best motorcycling experience I have ever had.
I was unable to talk to your guys after the event and subsequently unable to get a copy of my particular suspension settings. I was hoping to be able to get a copy emailed to me if that is possible.
My name is Mark Williams and I was riding a green 2005 Kawasaki ZX6RR and wearing green, black and white Hein Gericke leathers.
Thanks again for all your help.
Mark
WERA WEST - Jeff Havlik
After listening to a few championship winners thank Dave for his suspension services, at the 2007 WERA West award ceremony, I figured I had to give him a try. Working with Dave, turned out to be one my most rewarding days at the track so far. Doing the 1 on 1 tuning sessions, not only did my race bike get set up perfectly for the next race, I was able to learn a lot of suspension theory too. And maybe the best part is, that I will save literally hundreds of dollars on tires! You can't afford to not to have you suspension tuned by Dave.
Thanks again,
Jeffrey Havlik
WERA WEST # 217
Thanks again,
Jeffrey Havlik
WERA WEST # 217
AFM RACE REPORT: Steve Metz suspension boot camp attendee
Dave helped me make a real breakthrough in my riding at Buttonwillow at the AFM opening round in 2008. I came into the AFM weekend hoping to work with Dave to figure out premature tire wear issues I had, but ended up getting a lot more than I had expected.
Two weeks earlier, I had been at the track and had been turning in high 1:56s on fresh tires. At the AFM weekend, I spent the day working with Dave and we did a thorough review of my suspension setup. After a few sessions of working on my tire wear problem, Dave fixed my tire wear issues (saving me untold fortunes in rear tires).
We kept working together on other handling issues, and Dave continued making adjustments based on the feedback I provided. I'd describe a problem in a particular turn, we'd discuss it for a bit, and then Dave would make a setting adjustment. In the final session of the afternoon, I went back out on track and shaved a second and a half off my best lap time (to cap off 4 consecutive laps under my personal best at the track).
Without Dave's perspective as a rider and his knowledge as a tuner, I would not have been able to make the breakthrough in riding that gave me the pace I needed to have my best race finishes to-date.
Thanks, Dave!
Steve MetzAMA / AFM #944'04 Ducati 749GRRR
www.tigerbike.com
Two weeks earlier, I had been at the track and had been turning in high 1:56s on fresh tires. At the AFM weekend, I spent the day working with Dave and we did a thorough review of my suspension setup. After a few sessions of working on my tire wear problem, Dave fixed my tire wear issues (saving me untold fortunes in rear tires).
We kept working together on other handling issues, and Dave continued making adjustments based on the feedback I provided. I'd describe a problem in a particular turn, we'd discuss it for a bit, and then Dave would make a setting adjustment. In the final session of the afternoon, I went back out on track and shaved a second and a half off my best lap time (to cap off 4 consecutive laps under my personal best at the track).
Without Dave's perspective as a rider and his knowledge as a tuner, I would not have been able to make the breakthrough in riding that gave me the pace I needed to have my best race finishes to-date.
Thanks, Dave!
Steve MetzAMA / AFM #944'04 Ducati 749GRRR
www.tigerbike.com
AFM RACE REPORTS - Eddy Gonzales
Just wanted to get everyone updated on last weekends racing event, we took the low stress approach and it seemed to pay off.
Lot's of fun no crashing and some good results, enjoy...
Race Report here;
http://www.finishesunlimited.net/racing/reports.html
Race Pics here (hopefully more to come so check back later as well);
http://www.finishesunlimited.net/racing/photos.html
Pit Pics here;
http://www.finishesunlimited.net/racing/pit_pics.html
Reports also posted online at various forums;
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241458http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56001http://www.1098-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10104
Thanks everyone for all your support, Eddy AFM #831
Lot's of fun no crashing and some good results, enjoy...
Race Report here;
http://www.finishesunlimited.net/racing/reports.html
Race Pics here (hopefully more to come so check back later as well);
http://www.finishesunlimited.net/racing/photos.html
Pit Pics here;
http://www.finishesunlimited.net/racing/pit_pics.html
Reports also posted online at various forums;
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241458http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56001http://www.1098-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10104
Thanks everyone for all your support, Eddy AFM #831
AFM RACE REPORTS - John Proctor
John Proctor
AFM/WERA #218
AFM Round 1 at Buttonwillow
26 March 2008
The racing season has finally started and all the hard work that has gone into getting ready paid off this weekend at the AFM Round 1 races at Buttonwillow. Since I spent the last two years on a GSXR-750 I knew switching to the new CRB600RR was going to be a real challenge for me this season.
Looking back on the last three months I feel lucky to be working with the CRST team not only because of the huge amount of knowledge the entire crew has about suspension and bike handling, but because every member of the team contributes in a significant way. Tige worked really hard to help get me the right Elka shock with the right spring and to give me some initial set-up advice that worked straight away. Jim did an amazing job revalving these forks and they too worked straight away. In the past it has taken other folks several tries to get valving in place that I like and felt comfortable on. Jim got it right the first time and that was huge in terms of boosting my confidence on the track. When I finally got to test everything at Laguna in January, Dave worked with me on fine-tuning the set-up for the Pirelli tires I'm running. He also worked with me on footpeg placement to really help me work with the set-up. By the end of the first test, I could tell I was going to love this new bike. At our second test, the bike was having some issues finishing a corner, but again, Dave helped me sort that out through some geometry changes and some damping adjustments in the rear. As a scientist in my day job, it is nice to work with someone that knows how to convert what you feel on the track into numbers and data that you can record and study off-track.
By this point Dave and I had created an "adjustment map" of where the bike works so we know how to make changes when we need to. Because of that, by the race weekend, I was totally at home on this bike and my lap time progression showed it. In the 600 Superbike class, my first race, I got down to 2:08.5 lap times. In the Formula 1 race, I again was consistently running 2:08.5. The bike was working fine but in looking at my preload marker on the forks I could tell I needed to add some preload and Dave agreed. I made the preload adjustment on the forks and gridded up for my last race, the 600 Production race. Straight away, I knew I was going faster. The extra preload allowed me to brake a little later and harder. In fact, I was running 2:05's with 2:05.1 being my fastest, a full 5 seconds faster than my practice time. This was really exciting for me. I feel like I have a great platform now that I can really go out with confidence and start pushing the lap times down. I'm glad the CRST team will be with me as I do just that!
AFM/WERA #218
AFM Round 1 at Buttonwillow
26 March 2008
The racing season has finally started and all the hard work that has gone into getting ready paid off this weekend at the AFM Round 1 races at Buttonwillow. Since I spent the last two years on a GSXR-750 I knew switching to the new CRB600RR was going to be a real challenge for me this season.
Looking back on the last three months I feel lucky to be working with the CRST team not only because of the huge amount of knowledge the entire crew has about suspension and bike handling, but because every member of the team contributes in a significant way. Tige worked really hard to help get me the right Elka shock with the right spring and to give me some initial set-up advice that worked straight away. Jim did an amazing job revalving these forks and they too worked straight away. In the past it has taken other folks several tries to get valving in place that I like and felt comfortable on. Jim got it right the first time and that was huge in terms of boosting my confidence on the track. When I finally got to test everything at Laguna in January, Dave worked with me on fine-tuning the set-up for the Pirelli tires I'm running. He also worked with me on footpeg placement to really help me work with the set-up. By the end of the first test, I could tell I was going to love this new bike. At our second test, the bike was having some issues finishing a corner, but again, Dave helped me sort that out through some geometry changes and some damping adjustments in the rear. As a scientist in my day job, it is nice to work with someone that knows how to convert what you feel on the track into numbers and data that you can record and study off-track.
By this point Dave and I had created an "adjustment map" of where the bike works so we know how to make changes when we need to. Because of that, by the race weekend, I was totally at home on this bike and my lap time progression showed it. In the 600 Superbike class, my first race, I got down to 2:08.5 lap times. In the Formula 1 race, I again was consistently running 2:08.5. The bike was working fine but in looking at my preload marker on the forks I could tell I needed to add some preload and Dave agreed. I made the preload adjustment on the forks and gridded up for my last race, the 600 Production race. Straight away, I knew I was going faster. The extra preload allowed me to brake a little later and harder. In fact, I was running 2:05's with 2:05.1 being my fastest, a full 5 seconds faster than my practice time. This was really exciting for me. I feel like I have a great platform now that I can really go out with confidence and start pushing the lap times down. I'm glad the CRST team will be with me as I do just that!
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